During our enjoyable and useful discussions, I was trying to convince Ali of the "latent heat- partial vacuum combo" idea without realizing that was what he was trying to tell me, and he was trying to convince me of the same idea, without realizing that was what I was trying to tell him. When discussing new ideas, it takes awhile to understand whats going on sometimes.
Alpha, I appreciate the reflective tone and your acknowledgment of how complex these discussions can get. However, I think there's a critical distinction worth addressing.
Throughout our conversations, my focus has consistently been on highlighting why latent heat (LH) cannot serve as the primary driver of the Biotic Pump. I’ve explained that while LH and partial vacuum effects coexist, LH must be removed from the system to avoid attenuating the condensation implosions that truly drive circulation. This is fundamental to both the mechanics of the Biotic Pump and the experimental findings we've discussed, such as Peter Bunyard’s tests and the Newcomen engine analogy.
Where we diverged was in your framing of LH as a "kickstarter" or significant contributor to airflow, which fundamentally conflicts with the evidence. The biotic pump’s dynamics hinge on sharp, localized vacuums created by condensation implosions, not the diffusive energy of LH, which disperses broadly and works against the precision needed for these vacuums.
To clarify, I wasn’t arguing for a "combo idea" as the primary driver; I was explaining why LH’s role is secondary to condensation implosions and why its release via atmospheric windows is critical to sustaining the Biotic Pump.
The confusion here underscores an important point: the persistence of LH-centric narratives is precisely why the Biotic Pump remains contested as a theory. By shifting the focus to condensation implosions—proven through experiments and mathematical models—we can move from conjecture to validation.
What I mean by kickstarter is that we need that nudge in a certain direction . And yes you have been emphasizing that latent heat is secondary in terms of the driving force , which I tend to agree with. You’ve been emphasizing it more. I also do think partial vacuum is main driver in terms of moving the air . That’s why I think when we do get it going the right way, that the velocity will reflect the condensation implosion and not the latent heat effect. On rereading my essay I think I could have been more emphasized what a major contribution Bunyard’s experiment was, instead of such a large portion focused so much on what to do to it to make it go the right way. I agree that latent heat is more diffusive force , and probably could have emphasized that more. I did quote you in essay saying this point …..…I was going to put an analogy in the bar crowd example to show why latent heat diffuses and partial vacuum focuses. The idea for latent heat is the crowd spills into sidewalk and street, while for partial vacuum there is thinning of crowd on sidewalk but not street. So then the bar crowd gets focused on the sidewalk in its momentum, with less people blocking it, and so can gain enough .momentum to go around the block . If it was spilling into streets with just latent heat then it would be more diffuse in its momentum. But I thought I might confuse people by adding too many things to analogy
of course, without ET, and conversion of water into water vapours and consequent convection is part of the process, condensation can only occur at that height.
This 3,900 square miles of pine forest was created from the 1800's to stabilise and drain extensive marshlands, which it did, and in the process was found to increase rainfall inland, that greatly improved the yields of the once-dry farmlands. This made the Gers region some of the most productive farmland in France, which can be seen from the 19th century grand farmhouses, manors and towns in the region. It was, inadvertently, one of the biggest and most successful geo and climate-engineering projects ever undertaken.
Basically, the onshore warm prevailing south westerly winds from the Bay of Biscay increase the transpiration from the pine forest, draining the marshes, and the moist air rises, then cools and drops the rain inland. When the wind is from the north west, the rainfall lands on the Pyrenees mountains further south. I would imagine there are climate records going back at least 150 years (Toulouse or Bordeaux University?).
Some new thoughts: we can add a fan blowing air anti clockwise at lower speeds , to original experiment , and see if air then ends up anti clockwise at higher speeds . Also we can add just a heater at lower right bottom
What is the difference if the biotic pump is powered solely by latent heat or partial vacuum, or both? Would it be stronger if both? Do current models underestimate it?
If the Biotic Pump were powered solely by latent heat (LH), the system would stall or significantly weaken because LH, while energetic, disperses its energy too broadly and cannot create the localized vacuum necessary for sustained airflow. Partial vacuum, created by condensation implosions, is what drives the sharp horizontal air movement critical to the Biotic Pump. This principle has been demonstrated experimentally, as shown in Peter Bunyard’s tests, where LH was excluded to isolate the effects of condensation implosions.
Now, if both forces act together, the system can indeed work synergistically—but only if LH is released out of the system. Similar to the Newcomen and Watt engines, LH must leave the cylinder for the vacuum to form and the piston to move effectively. If LH lingers, it attenuates the vacuum force, and the system efficiency drops.
The physics of this disruption lies in the way LH interacts with surrounding air. When water vapor condenses, LH is released as infrared radiation, which needs to escape through atmospheric windows into space. If this radiation is trapped (e.g., by cirrus clouds or pollution), the surrounding air absorbs the energy, causing expansion instead of collapse. This expansion counteracts the localized vacuum created by condensation implosions, reducing the inward pull of moist air from the ocean. The thermodynamic reset required for sharp vacuums is blocked, leading to a weaker pressure gradient and diminished airflow. In essence, the system cannot sustain the rapid inward movement of air needed for the Biotic Pump to function effectively.
This misplaced emphasis on LH has delayed the Biotic Pump’s recognition as an established principle. Models that prioritize LH as the primary driver fail to account for its diffusive nature, while ignoring the localized power of condensation implosions. Peter Bunyard’s experiments, supported by precise calculations, show that condensation implosions alone generate measurable wind speeds aligned with real-world observations. The Biotic Pump is powered not by the dissipation of energy via LH but by the sharp pressure drops induced by condensation implosions.
As discussed in 141: The Engine That Shouldn’t Have Worked (https://r3genesis.substack.com/p/141-the-engine-that-shouldnt-have ), condensation implosions create a 1,700-fold volume reduction when water vapor condenses into liquid, producing sharp vacuums that drive inward airflow. When LH escapes via atmospheric windows, this process continues efficiently. But when trapped—whether due to cirrus clouds, geoengineering, or other disruptions—the implosive force diminishes, and the Biotic Pump falters.
Theoretical debates have distracted from the practical, observable reality. If LH is truly the primary driver, let’s test it. Using LH energy (2.25 kJ/g), calculate the wind speeds it would generate and compare them to those observed from condensation implosions (0.17 kJ/g). The results will clarify the physics and the scale of each force’s contribution.
It’s time to refine the narrative and bring clarity to the Biotic Pump’s mechanics. The condensation implosions, akin to the Newcomen engine's vacuum principle, provide the missing link in understanding large-scale atmospheric circulation. This focus can help elevate the Biotic Pump from "just a theory" to an empirically validated model—and perhaps even rename it to reflect its true dynamics.
I am not that sure. There are number of different ways to model the convection in climate models. And then they paramaterize the models so that it better fits with data…… I think there are probably instances where the convection and circulation would be greater by taking biotic pump into effect
It is easy to conceive of the reduction in pressure in a rain event from the top down as colder rain/hail drops down through the warmer high humidity air to cool this and create more rain and therefore lower pressure , but in the tropics many rain events will last up to half an hour then stop being too short a time frame to start a cyclical flow of air, So It is then conceivable that to fill this vacuum air will move from a high pressure to low pressure direction like from warm humid sea to over the land but what is feeding the land based precipitation vs the sea? One theory is trees with stored energy should continue to transpire under cloud increasing the pressure when clouds block the evaporation from the ocean? therefore there will be increased humidity and pressure over the land when the pressure stops over the see until the rain tipping point. This rain tipping point is then either caused by afternoon temperature drop or increased transpiration humidity pressure either way allowing a transfer from a high to low pressure zone and the inflow of more humid air. As to air coming from all directions then this depends on the stability of the pressure systems in the areas surrounding the rain event and one would assume the highest pressure would win out. I think it could come down to the stored energy in trees and their ability to transfer greater water into the atmosphere through transpiration under cloud and then rain will become more likely in the higher humidity zone first creating the cycle. One thought on checking the viability is to look at the effect as the sun sets in a singular direction allowing for uniform cooling over land and sea along a singular longitude in places like Indonesia where there is irregular land and sea boundaries, Just my thoughts I look forward to hearing a continuation of this very important discussion. many thanks
I guess it is more two statements that need fact checking, firstly in relation to the biotic pump the principle behind the mechanistic view does not seem to take into account the fact that many plants work on stored energy and the lower light conditions due to clouds favor their growth and hence humidity will still increase over a forest compared to over the ocean as the clouds increase and should create an earlier tipping point into rain. Secondly due to the fact the world cools from east to west as we rotate how would this play into the biotic pump and land clearing in the amazon. My view is that it may reverse and rain more over the ocean and draw moisture away from the land adding to the el nino hence the level of drought conditions we are seeing now.
Its hard to understand your first sentence because the grammar is incorrect. Plants do store energy. And yes they can release water to create earlier tipping point. I cant tell if this answers your question, because I am not sure what your question is......... On second point, rotation of earth creates tradewinds. And these winds affect where the water blows. It also relates to how the water comes from the ocean into the Amazon in the wet season.
As a side note this may be a reason why the Amazon is moving to a drier climate so quickly as it is cleared, Is there more rain over the ocean pushing the pump in reverse as the sun sets there first?
During our enjoyable and useful discussions, I was trying to convince Ali of the "latent heat- partial vacuum combo" idea without realizing that was what he was trying to tell me, and he was trying to convince me of the same idea, without realizing that was what I was trying to tell him. When discussing new ideas, it takes awhile to understand whats going on sometimes.
Alpha, I appreciate the reflective tone and your acknowledgment of how complex these discussions can get. However, I think there's a critical distinction worth addressing.
Throughout our conversations, my focus has consistently been on highlighting why latent heat (LH) cannot serve as the primary driver of the Biotic Pump. I’ve explained that while LH and partial vacuum effects coexist, LH must be removed from the system to avoid attenuating the condensation implosions that truly drive circulation. This is fundamental to both the mechanics of the Biotic Pump and the experimental findings we've discussed, such as Peter Bunyard’s tests and the Newcomen engine analogy.
Where we diverged was in your framing of LH as a "kickstarter" or significant contributor to airflow, which fundamentally conflicts with the evidence. The biotic pump’s dynamics hinge on sharp, localized vacuums created by condensation implosions, not the diffusive energy of LH, which disperses broadly and works against the precision needed for these vacuums.
To clarify, I wasn’t arguing for a "combo idea" as the primary driver; I was explaining why LH’s role is secondary to condensation implosions and why its release via atmospheric windows is critical to sustaining the Biotic Pump.
The confusion here underscores an important point: the persistence of LH-centric narratives is precisely why the Biotic Pump remains contested as a theory. By shifting the focus to condensation implosions—proven through experiments and mathematical models—we can move from conjecture to validation.
What I mean by kickstarter is that we need that nudge in a certain direction . And yes you have been emphasizing that latent heat is secondary in terms of the driving force , which I tend to agree with. You’ve been emphasizing it more. I also do think partial vacuum is main driver in terms of moving the air . That’s why I think when we do get it going the right way, that the velocity will reflect the condensation implosion and not the latent heat effect. On rereading my essay I think I could have been more emphasized what a major contribution Bunyard’s experiment was, instead of such a large portion focused so much on what to do to it to make it go the right way. I agree that latent heat is more diffusive force , and probably could have emphasized that more. I did quote you in essay saying this point …..…I was going to put an analogy in the bar crowd example to show why latent heat diffuses and partial vacuum focuses. The idea for latent heat is the crowd spills into sidewalk and street, while for partial vacuum there is thinning of crowd on sidewalk but not street. So then the bar crowd gets focused on the sidewalk in its momentum, with less people blocking it, and so can gain enough .momentum to go around the block . If it was spilling into streets with just latent heat then it would be more diffuse in its momentum. But I thought I might confuse people by adding too many things to analogy
of course, without ET, and conversion of water into water vapours and consequent convection is part of the process, condensation can only occur at that height.
You may want to take a look at 'Les Landes' on the southern Biscay coast of France.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landes_forest
This 3,900 square miles of pine forest was created from the 1800's to stabilise and drain extensive marshlands, which it did, and in the process was found to increase rainfall inland, that greatly improved the yields of the once-dry farmlands. This made the Gers region some of the most productive farmland in France, which can be seen from the 19th century grand farmhouses, manors and towns in the region. It was, inadvertently, one of the biggest and most successful geo and climate-engineering projects ever undertaken.
Basically, the onshore warm prevailing south westerly winds from the Bay of Biscay increase the transpiration from the pine forest, draining the marshes, and the moist air rises, then cools and drops the rain inland. When the wind is from the north west, the rainfall lands on the Pyrenees mountains further south. I would imagine there are climate records going back at least 150 years (Toulouse or Bordeaux University?).
Just a thought.
Yeah it would be interesting to look at the weather records of that area historically
Some new thoughts: we can add a fan blowing air anti clockwise at lower speeds , to original experiment , and see if air then ends up anti clockwise at higher speeds . Also we can add just a heater at lower right bottom
What is the difference if the biotic pump is powered solely by latent heat or partial vacuum, or both? Would it be stronger if both? Do current models underestimate it?
If the Biotic Pump were powered solely by latent heat (LH), the system would stall or significantly weaken because LH, while energetic, disperses its energy too broadly and cannot create the localized vacuum necessary for sustained airflow. Partial vacuum, created by condensation implosions, is what drives the sharp horizontal air movement critical to the Biotic Pump. This principle has been demonstrated experimentally, as shown in Peter Bunyard’s tests, where LH was excluded to isolate the effects of condensation implosions.
Now, if both forces act together, the system can indeed work synergistically—but only if LH is released out of the system. Similar to the Newcomen and Watt engines, LH must leave the cylinder for the vacuum to form and the piston to move effectively. If LH lingers, it attenuates the vacuum force, and the system efficiency drops.
The physics of this disruption lies in the way LH interacts with surrounding air. When water vapor condenses, LH is released as infrared radiation, which needs to escape through atmospheric windows into space. If this radiation is trapped (e.g., by cirrus clouds or pollution), the surrounding air absorbs the energy, causing expansion instead of collapse. This expansion counteracts the localized vacuum created by condensation implosions, reducing the inward pull of moist air from the ocean. The thermodynamic reset required for sharp vacuums is blocked, leading to a weaker pressure gradient and diminished airflow. In essence, the system cannot sustain the rapid inward movement of air needed for the Biotic Pump to function effectively.
This misplaced emphasis on LH has delayed the Biotic Pump’s recognition as an established principle. Models that prioritize LH as the primary driver fail to account for its diffusive nature, while ignoring the localized power of condensation implosions. Peter Bunyard’s experiments, supported by precise calculations, show that condensation implosions alone generate measurable wind speeds aligned with real-world observations. The Biotic Pump is powered not by the dissipation of energy via LH but by the sharp pressure drops induced by condensation implosions.
As discussed in 141: The Engine That Shouldn’t Have Worked (https://r3genesis.substack.com/p/141-the-engine-that-shouldnt-have ), condensation implosions create a 1,700-fold volume reduction when water vapor condenses into liquid, producing sharp vacuums that drive inward airflow. When LH escapes via atmospheric windows, this process continues efficiently. But when trapped—whether due to cirrus clouds, geoengineering, or other disruptions—the implosive force diminishes, and the Biotic Pump falters.
Theoretical debates have distracted from the practical, observable reality. If LH is truly the primary driver, let’s test it. Using LH energy (2.25 kJ/g), calculate the wind speeds it would generate and compare them to those observed from condensation implosions (0.17 kJ/g). The results will clarify the physics and the scale of each force’s contribution.
It’s time to refine the narrative and bring clarity to the Biotic Pump’s mechanics. The condensation implosions, akin to the Newcomen engine's vacuum principle, provide the missing link in understanding large-scale atmospheric circulation. This focus can help elevate the Biotic Pump from "just a theory" to an empirically validated model—and perhaps even rename it to reflect its true dynamics.
How long does it take for infrared radiation to take away latent heat ? Is it too long to effect condensation implosion driven effects?
Great thanks for this clarifying all this. And for readers check out the link to the follow up essay of Ali’s in the comment
I am not that sure. There are number of different ways to model the convection in climate models. And then they paramaterize the models so that it better fits with data…… I think there are probably instances where the convection and circulation would be greater by taking biotic pump into effect
It is easy to conceive of the reduction in pressure in a rain event from the top down as colder rain/hail drops down through the warmer high humidity air to cool this and create more rain and therefore lower pressure , but in the tropics many rain events will last up to half an hour then stop being too short a time frame to start a cyclical flow of air, So It is then conceivable that to fill this vacuum air will move from a high pressure to low pressure direction like from warm humid sea to over the land but what is feeding the land based precipitation vs the sea? One theory is trees with stored energy should continue to transpire under cloud increasing the pressure when clouds block the evaporation from the ocean? therefore there will be increased humidity and pressure over the land when the pressure stops over the see until the rain tipping point. This rain tipping point is then either caused by afternoon temperature drop or increased transpiration humidity pressure either way allowing a transfer from a high to low pressure zone and the inflow of more humid air. As to air coming from all directions then this depends on the stability of the pressure systems in the areas surrounding the rain event and one would assume the highest pressure would win out. I think it could come down to the stored energy in trees and their ability to transfer greater water into the atmosphere through transpiration under cloud and then rain will become more likely in the higher humidity zone first creating the cycle. One thought on checking the viability is to look at the effect as the sun sets in a singular direction allowing for uniform cooling over land and sea along a singular longitude in places like Indonesia where there is irregular land and sea boundaries, Just my thoughts I look forward to hearing a continuation of this very important discussion. many thanks
Could you ask again simply what your main question is?
I guess it is more two statements that need fact checking, firstly in relation to the biotic pump the principle behind the mechanistic view does not seem to take into account the fact that many plants work on stored energy and the lower light conditions due to clouds favor their growth and hence humidity will still increase over a forest compared to over the ocean as the clouds increase and should create an earlier tipping point into rain. Secondly due to the fact the world cools from east to west as we rotate how would this play into the biotic pump and land clearing in the amazon. My view is that it may reverse and rain more over the ocean and draw moisture away from the land adding to the el nino hence the level of drought conditions we are seeing now.
Its hard to understand your first sentence because the grammar is incorrect. Plants do store energy. And yes they can release water to create earlier tipping point. I cant tell if this answers your question, because I am not sure what your question is......... On second point, rotation of earth creates tradewinds. And these winds affect where the water blows. It also relates to how the water comes from the ocean into the Amazon in the wet season.
As a side note this may be a reason why the Amazon is moving to a drier climate so quickly as it is cleared, Is there more rain over the ocean pushing the pump in reverse as the sun sets there first?