Hi Alpho, just watched first vid with you and DIdi because your papers are referenced by Thorsten Arnold and Rob Lewis.
Years ago I came across cloud physicist Tim Garrett's work and his theory of the constant relation between energy needed to maintain civilization and the integrated total GDP over time.
Here are three links if you're interested. It seems to me the cloud physics is inherent is any viable climate/habitat solution.
There is some usage of analogy. In one of the explanations of convective aggregation, namely a) above, the clouds which 'huddle' together are higher, and so trap heat, so they are somewhat warmer. What happens is elsewhere their are lower clouds which cause more heat to radiate to space. So overall the effect is to cool.
Hi Alpha, I have a question about the way we model clouds and weather phenomena. Does electric charge play a role in your conception of cloud formation and behavior?
We know that water vapor molecules are ionized by solar energy into H+ and OH- radicals, and that different portions of clouds show concentrations of positive or negative charge. Phenomena like thunderhead formation and sudden storms are best described in terms of these electric charges, and they generally follow the daily cycle of incoming solar energy building up and then being released to the ground. A rainstorm is not just a matter of condensed water falling down from its sheer weight; it happens when the charged water droplets close an electrical circuit and are pulled down to earth.
The earth's negative charge is the opposite pole in this circuit, and unlike in the insulating blanket of atmospheric air, electric charge travels more freely on the surface. Plants also have electric fields that allow them to act as mediators in the flow of charge.
So in terms of climate, I'm especially interested in understanding the results of damage to landscapes including urban development, deforestation and industrial agriculture. By stripping vegetation from large expanses of the earth's surface, we know that we are harming the environment's ability to manage heat, but are we also effectively damaging the land's ability to recharge itself and to support normal weather patterns?
Thanks for posting the Pollack video. I got the benefit of reading review chapters of a book by Gerald Pollack a few years ago in which he explains his weather ideas more extensively. Frustratingly though, this book still hasn't been published.
He has a real gift for common-sense thought experiments in the tradition of Richard Feynman. His speculation in this video about what makes the atmosphere "stick" to the earth rather than allow the earth to spin beneath it, is very thought-provoking.
Don't you think that we need a lot more "non mainstream" thinking to make the connections between ecosystems, water and climate that seem to have such enormous potential? To listen to the typical description of weather patterns you would think there was nothing but wind pushing the clouds around from one place to another, convective forces making water vapor rise or fall, and nothing but gravity inducing them to finally release their load of water. But those forces really don't make an adequate model for what makes the weather. Pollack makes the case that electric charge is central to understanding cloud behavior, wind, and weather phenomena.
The voltage difference between atmosphere and land may be important. We know the voltage difference between inside and outside the membrane of a cell is important, as it regulates what moves across it. The voltage across the atmosphere may move certain things up or down.... And charges are quite strong in nature in terms of being able to affect things, so it would be interesting to see more of how much it can move things around. Not much research in this area, but then thats where breakthroughs can happen.
One of Pollack's most vital ideas, I think, was that wind/air travels around in sheets and not independant wind streams. The cloud aggregation model looks exactly like gel formation in liquids at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_aggregation
He believed that clouds are giant interlocked gel formations which, if they still have enough charge differential, continue to grow layers of + & - alternating.
This would explain the clouds clumping. It would also explain the temperature drop because the water gel formation locks up energy. They even know the theory by feel because they throw aluminum up there to cloud seed, which is entirely consistent with Pollack's EZ theory.
I think the like attracts like only happens on really small scales , like micrometers, not on size scales between clouds which can be hundreds of meters. So i could see it playing a role in cloud formation where micrometer scales are important...
In theory we'd have 'like likes like', no? Pollack had that one experiment where two (-) EZ shelled balls rolled towards each other because the overlapping (+) zone they created was strong enough to cause movement.
I thought the biotic pump helped explain this? The notion that vertical movement down a cloud profile especially through ice formation can change temperature gradients and effect condensation which in turn creates areas of atmospheric concentration.
HI Alpha, in my mind the biotic pump is a biomechanical mechanism that can happen anywhere with the emphasis on biological keys like ice nucleating particles , the reason why the forests may win the battle is there ability to evapotranspire in higher cloud conditions in part through stored energy to allow continued growth where a clouded ocean will decrease in evapotranspiration. I may be wrong :)
Oh you mean the partial vacuum effect when water vapor condenses. That’s interesting it does create a sucking effect. So possibly clouds could attract each other with that. Hmm worth investigating
It is interesting that the land produces a much higher density of INP than the ocean and they have much warmer temperatures for ice nucleation so that is probably another reason why land wins the tug of war and why forests are so important. I had a discussion with Anastasia about the ability of vertical movement of temperature from the upper atmosphere down through the cloud column by hail and how it can supercharge this effect.
Hi Alpho, just watched first vid with you and DIdi because your papers are referenced by Thorsten Arnold and Rob Lewis.
Years ago I came across cloud physicist Tim Garrett's work and his theory of the constant relation between energy needed to maintain civilization and the integrated total GDP over time.
Here are three links if you're interested. It seems to me the cloud physics is inherent is any viable climate/habitat solution.
https://un-denial.com/2021/02/23/by-tim-garrett-jevons-paradox-why-increasing-energy-efficiency-will-accelerate-global-climate-change/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpRGMTPLd74
http://www.cabrillo.edu/~rnolthenius/Apowers/A7-K43-Garrett.pdf
Hi, yes that makes some sense to me that gdp correlating with carbon emissions, and that we want to reduce production.
I'm led to imagine clouds huddling together to for warmth! Obviously not what's happening, but it's the picture that came up for me. :)
There is some usage of analogy. In one of the explanations of convective aggregation, namely a) above, the clouds which 'huddle' together are higher, and so trap heat, so they are somewhat warmer. What happens is elsewhere their are lower clouds which cause more heat to radiate to space. So overall the effect is to cool.
Hi Alpha, I have a question about the way we model clouds and weather phenomena. Does electric charge play a role in your conception of cloud formation and behavior?
We know that water vapor molecules are ionized by solar energy into H+ and OH- radicals, and that different portions of clouds show concentrations of positive or negative charge. Phenomena like thunderhead formation and sudden storms are best described in terms of these electric charges, and they generally follow the daily cycle of incoming solar energy building up and then being released to the ground. A rainstorm is not just a matter of condensed water falling down from its sheer weight; it happens when the charged water droplets close an electrical circuit and are pulled down to earth.
The earth's negative charge is the opposite pole in this circuit, and unlike in the insulating blanket of atmospheric air, electric charge travels more freely on the surface. Plants also have electric fields that allow them to act as mediators in the flow of charge.
So in terms of climate, I'm especially interested in understanding the results of damage to landscapes including urban development, deforestation and industrial agriculture. By stripping vegetation from large expanses of the earth's surface, we know that we are harming the environment's ability to manage heat, but are we also effectively damaging the land's ability to recharge itself and to support normal weather patterns?
Charges might play some role in cloud formation. Charged aerosols can impact the nucleation rate of rain https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2022EGUGA..24.9439R/abstract . Dr. Gerald Pollack has some (non mainstream ) theories about charges affecting formation of clouds. See 37 min mark of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnwAUVNhU0s
Thanks for posting the Pollack video. I got the benefit of reading review chapters of a book by Gerald Pollack a few years ago in which he explains his weather ideas more extensively. Frustratingly though, this book still hasn't been published.
He has a real gift for common-sense thought experiments in the tradition of Richard Feynman. His speculation in this video about what makes the atmosphere "stick" to the earth rather than allow the earth to spin beneath it, is very thought-provoking.
Don't you think that we need a lot more "non mainstream" thinking to make the connections between ecosystems, water and climate that seem to have such enormous potential? To listen to the typical description of weather patterns you would think there was nothing but wind pushing the clouds around from one place to another, convective forces making water vapor rise or fall, and nothing but gravity inducing them to finally release their load of water. But those forces really don't make an adequate model for what makes the weather. Pollack makes the case that electric charge is central to understanding cloud behavior, wind, and weather phenomena.
The voltage difference between atmosphere and land may be important. We know the voltage difference between inside and outside the membrane of a cell is important, as it regulates what moves across it. The voltage across the atmosphere may move certain things up or down.... And charges are quite strong in nature in terms of being able to affect things, so it would be interesting to see more of how much it can move things around. Not much research in this area, but then thats where breakthroughs can happen.
One of Pollack's most vital ideas, I think, was that wind/air travels around in sheets and not independant wind streams. The cloud aggregation model looks exactly like gel formation in liquids at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_aggregation
He believed that clouds are giant interlocked gel formations which, if they still have enough charge differential, continue to grow layers of + & - alternating.
This would explain the clouds clumping. It would also explain the temperature drop because the water gel formation locks up energy. They even know the theory by feel because they throw aluminum up there to cloud seed, which is entirely consistent with Pollack's EZ theory.
I think Pollack's theory is that charges are what helps hold clouds together. Not sure though if he thinks clouds can attract other clouds....
Here's a relatively recent article from Pollack about the idea that charge is a major component in cloud formation.
https://www.meer.com/en/72982-how-do-clouds-form
I think the like attracts like only happens on really small scales , like micrometers, not on size scales between clouds which can be hundreds of meters. So i could see it playing a role in cloud formation where micrometer scales are important...
In theory we'd have 'like likes like', no? Pollack had that one experiment where two (-) EZ shelled balls rolled towards each other because the overlapping (+) zone they created was strong enough to cause movement.
I thought the biotic pump helped explain this? The notion that vertical movement down a cloud profile especially through ice formation can change temperature gradients and effect condensation which in turn creates areas of atmospheric concentration.
This happens over oceans. Biotic pump is about changing atmospheric circulation to bring ocean moisture to forests .
HI Alpha, in my mind the biotic pump is a biomechanical mechanism that can happen anywhere with the emphasis on biological keys like ice nucleating particles , the reason why the forests may win the battle is there ability to evapotranspire in higher cloud conditions in part through stored energy to allow continued growth where a clouded ocean will decrease in evapotranspiration. I may be wrong :)
Oh you mean the partial vacuum effect when water vapor condenses. That’s interesting it does create a sucking effect. So possibly clouds could attract each other with that. Hmm worth investigating
It is interesting that the land produces a much higher density of INP than the ocean and they have much warmer temperatures for ice nucleation so that is probably another reason why land wins the tug of war and why forests are so important. I had a discussion with Anastasia about the ability of vertical movement of temperature from the upper atmosphere down through the cloud column by hail and how it can supercharge this effect.